Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kuleba: Russia is "fighting an energy war against Europe"

Corinna Milborn: Good evening minister. Thank you for your time.

Dmytro Kuleba: It's my pleasure.

Milborn: Mr Kuleba, Russia is pulling the plug on gas and it's slowing It's delivery to Europe. Do you think this is really due to technical problems on the Russian side due to sanctions? Or is it an act of war?

Kuleba: Well, for decades Russia used gas and oil as a weapon. By different means, but always as a weapon. So it should not come as a surprise now that they're doing it under current circumstances and there should be no alternative interpretation. They weaponized gas and oil and they're fighting an energy war against Europe.

Milborn: So how do you expect Europe to react, especially Austria, but also Germany are very dependent on Russian gas. Do you expect to keep up the sanctions or do you feel that Austria or perhaps Hungary might want to loosen the sanctions on Russia in this situation?

Kuleba: I don't think that Europe is an entity that should fall under the pressure of Russia. Quite to the contrary, in recent months the European Union demonstrated that it is capable of taking a very principled position.

In the end, Russia will lose - and Ukraine and the European Union will win. I don't think that sanctions will be lifted or the pressure on Russia will be eased.

I think that this open weaponization of gas by Russia is a clear message to German and Austrian businesses, that they have to speed up their green transition and switch to renewable energy.

Russia will remain Russia. This is the fact. And even if they do not succeed now, they will try to do it again, to use gas as a weapon. So, no one trusts Russia and therefore alternative solutions should be found.

Milborn: Now you are in good talks with the EU Commission, who said that it proposes an accession status for Ukraine to the European Union. Austria is quite hesitant on this. What exactly do you expect? When do you want to join the European Union?

Kuleba: Well, I hope that Austria will support the opinion of the European Commission.

Austria is a country that understands politics east of Vienna very well. And historically part of Ukraine belonged to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, so we have pretty good connections, not only in the past, but also today, when Austrian businesses locate their factories and their production lines in Ukraine.

I do not see any rational argument why Austria should not support the opinion of the European Commission, especially in right of the fact that we are not talking about immediate membership. Granting Ukrainian EU-candidacy status is not about Ukraine becoming immediately a member of the European Union, it's only about anchoring Ukraine in the EU integration project, which serves the best interests of all: Ukraine, Austria and the European Union as a whole.

Milborn: But as you say, this can take years or even decades, to become a member. So is this candidate status just a symbol that you need right now? Or is it more?

Kuleba: It is more, because it makes Ukraine officially an integral part of the process of European integration, not in the status of member, but as in the status of someone who will eventually become a member. This is a very natural choice for the European Union, to expand its transformative force and energy in the region.

This is good for businesses. This is good for people-to-people contact. This is also good for the security of Europe. But of course, this decision also carries a lot of symbolism in it, because once a in a while the European Union will send a very clear message: Ukraine is part of us, Ukrainians are Europeans, Ukraine is Europe. It doesn't matter how many years it will take to become a member. But what really matters is a clear recognition of this fact, and I would like to remind you that in the last 30 years since Ukraine gained independence, European Union lacked the will, the political will to admit the fact that Ukraine is Europe. Finally, they make it – hooray! We welcome their courage and commitment.

Milborn: Now Russias President Putin said in his speech in St. Petersburg, that he has no problem with Ukraine joining the European Union, as it's not a defensive alliance like NATO would be. Do you take this seriously? Do you think that Putin would have no problem with Ukraine wanting to join the EU?

Kuleba: Russian pattern of behaviour is always the same whether it's about Ukraine or any other country. First, they threaten you, that if you do something they will punish you in the most severe way. Then when they realise that they failed, they say: Actually, we never had a problem with it, it's fine they can do whatever they want.

Look at how they commented on Swedens and Finlands accession to NATO. It was exactly the same pattern. Just a couple of months ago, Russia was against Ukraine moving towards the European Union. I can state it officially here in an interview with you today, when they realized that they've lost this battle to divide Europe into the spheres of influence and to keep Ukraine in their sphere of influence, they come out and say: we never had a problem with it, Ukraine can do whatever it wants with the European Union. Which teaches us only one lesson: Do what you believe is right and don't be afraid of Russia.

Milborn: Talking about the war, you postponed the peace talks until the end of August. Why do you not have peace talks now? Why wait till the end of August to continue talking about peace?

Kuleba: We did not postpone talks to the end of August. We all live in an information society, where many messages are being communicated at the same time, and what you referred to was the opinion expressed by one member of parliament. We are not setting any timeline or any deadline for the beginning or the end of talks. What we are saying is something very simple: We are ready to engage in talks with Russia, if Russia approaches these talks not with ultimatums, but with a reasonable approach to negotiate mutually acceptable solutions in good faith. And second, of course, we will keep negotiating with Russia, only! Only if they admit the fact that they have to withdraw from our territories.

Milborn: Now, that is not the case right now. War is going on in the east of Ukraine and you ask for more weapons, but you also describe the Russian artillery as 15 times stronger than the Ukrainian one. How many weapons do you need in order to fight such a much bigger power? And are you even able to use them with the Ukrainian army, with the state the army is in, right now?

Kuleba: Well, if the war was only about the quantities of weapons and soldiers, we would have already lost this war, because Russia is much bigger. It has much more many tanks, planes, multiple launch rocket systems and cannons. But the war is much more complex phenomena and this is the reason why we are still talking, why Ukraine still exists, why Ukraine won the battles for Kiev, for Kharkiv. Because war also involves other elements, including morale. Now morale is much higher.

So, the answer to your question is very simple: If we do not receive all the weapons that we need, things will remain more or less as they are. They will be fighting taking place in the east and the south; many Ukrainians will be dying, many Russians will be dying.

If we receive the weapons that we need, we will be ready to push. We will be able to push Russia back to liberate our territories and put an end to this war. This is the choice. The best way and the quickest way to end to the war is to provide Ukraine with necessary weapons.

Milborn: You are also pushing back pressure on the cultural front. There's a new law of de-russification, banning some Russian books. Now that sounds strange for a country describing itself as liberal. What's your aim with these new rules?

Kuleba: You should go to - well, you shouldn't - but if you went to Moscow and entered a bookstore in Moscow, you would see bookshelves filled with books with anti-Ukrainian content: Spreading hate towards Ukraine, explaining why Ukrainians do not exist, why we deserve to be de-ukrainized.

The official goal of the Russian War against Ukraine is actually to de-ukrainize Ukraine, so to say. What we are doing now is a temporary protective measure, to protect ourselves from the influence of Russia on different fronts. Because in the 21st century the war rages not only on the battleground, but also in peoples minds and we have to protect ourselves from this influence.

If Russian literature was only about classic literature, that spreads ideas of humanity and peace and love between nations, we wouldn't have any problems with it. But no propaganda, no hate will penetrate Ukraine from Russia.

Milborn: One last question about the situation right now in the east. All in total, how high are the losses that Ukrainians have suffered until now?

Kuleba: I cannot disclose the numbers, but unfortunately our losses are very painful and not only in killed but also in wounded and we are speaking about dozens of wounded per day, of killed per day, in a battle. Because this is the real war. I don't think people have the full understanding of what the battle for Donbass looks like. It's a real war, with air attacks, with artillery, with tanks and endless fighting.

I can give you one very quick example: in some places our soldiers spend 20 hours per day in trenches under endless artillery fire. Can you imagine spending 20 hours out of 24 hours per day in a trench under permanent artillery fire? This is the battle for Donbass.

Milborn: So thank you very much for your assessment of this situation and thank you for your time for this interview. Thank you Minister Kuleba.

Kuleba: Thank you for your questions. Have a good day.

Das Interview in Deutsch: